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发信人: linuxrat (叫我老鼠错不了), 信区: Linux
标 题: Eric Raymond在日本的专访记录. 过瘾啊!
发信站: BBS 水木清华站 (Thu Dec 30 19:51:47 1999)
听说Eric Raymond不是很喜欢中国, 可能是不了解中国的实际情况的. 不过
他自己很喜欢技击性体育运动, 也就是我们常说的"功夫"啦. 听ESR说, 在
美国很多的黑客都很喜欢空手道, 柔道之类的东西哦. 根据在ESR的个人主页
说, 他明年的日程安排当中有去新加坡的...//sigh, 什么时候他能改变成见,
来中国啊....
呵呵, 我喜欢大成拳,绝对的中国原传武学, 可惜我不是guru.... 哪位想学
功夫的, 我可以给引荐的说...
好了, 不影响大家看帖子啦.....
==================Begin of Interview===========================
Thanks to Maya Tamiya at ChangeLog for performing this interview and
providing it to us!
ESR interview (part I)
Eric S. Raymond came to Japan to speak at several places in Tokyo and
Kyoto. We had a chance to have an interview with him at Kyoto Sangyo
University on May 28, before his talk. We would like to thank Eric for
kindly answering to our questions. We also would like to thank Tomoko
Yoshida, Greg Peterson, Chihiro Higuchi, Ushio Kaihara and other
members who managed to realize Eric's lecture and our interview in
Kyoto, and Kenji Rikitake and Tatsuya Sasawawa for their advice.
ChangeLog: When will your next paper "The Magic Cauldron" come out?
(rat注: <魔法大锅炉>的翻译稿已经有rover翻译并放在bbs.aka.citf.net
的Magazine板里面了. 有空大家去看看吧. )
ESR: In only a few weeks. As a matter of fact, I have what I think
will be the final version on my computer. So it will come out in a few
weeks.
ChangeLog: I heard that the paper discusses about how a company can
benefit by making its software an open source software, without
selling it directly.
ESR: It includes that, but it's not the only thing in it. But it
includes those ideas.
One of the things that I identify in that paper is the eight business
models. For six of which we have real world examples which permit you
to make actual profits from open source software, so yes, I do talk
about that, but that's not the only thing in the paper.
ChangeLog: When you released "The Cathedral and the Bazaar", the most
influenced company was probably Netscape. Which company will be the
most influenced one by "The Magic Cauldron"?
( <教堂与大市集>咱就不必说到什么地方看了吧? )[B
ESR: Well, I don't know it because it has not happened yet. (laugh)
ChangeLog: Do you have one in your mind? Should we buy that company's
stocks now?
ESR: (laugh) One particular company I'm thinking about... Right now,
the OSI is negotiating with IBM about some things. I can't talk about
details, but I can tell that you may see some interesting
announcements from IBM in the near future.
( ESR没买股票, 可是却一下在发财了. 跟VA Linux公司有关的说. 呵呵)
ChangeLog: Is IBM asking you for your advice?
ESR: Yes they are. We are having some discussions that I can't talk
about yet. It's not specificly about that paper, it's about what kind
of license IBM might use for certain products that they are thinking
of releasing as open source. So I'm discussing the way to use for it.
---------
ChangeLog: You were MC of the panel discussion at the LinuxWorld in
March. Since you were busy being MC, is there anything you could not
say at the discussion?
ESR: That was quite hard, I tell you. I thought it was going to be
required a panel discussion. I didn't expect the conference organizers
to turn it into six thousand person rock concert. (laugh)
When you got six thousand people hanging on their every word, it's
hard to have a serious discussion. So, it was a difficult work.
ChangeLog: Did you have anything that you have decided to say before
the panel discussion?
ESR: My goal was for the people on the panel who I think were among
the most important leaders of the open source, to discuss the things
that actually needed to happen in the open source movement during the
next year. We did actually found out the goals and they are now
working on them.
ChangeLog: You talked about what to do in the next nine months, or
within this year. Now three months have passed and has your goal
changed since?
ESR: One of the objectives we identified was trying to increase the
use of open source software in education. We can see it from the demos
(Kyoto Sangyo University's Information Education System, which is made
up of 603 Linux/NT dual boot machines and has been in use since this
April, details also described in LWN) we just saw, that's actually
happening. So that's right on schedule, I think.
---------
(faint. 中国的东西都没有走向世界, 真是....//sigh...花架子害了中华武学啊...)
ChangeLog: You are interested in Japanese culture and martial arts...
ESR: Yes I am. I am a student of Aikido. Very very new student of
Aikido, I just started studying it a month ago. But before that, I
spent almost 9 years studying Karate. I have a Shodan.
ChangeLog: You learned Karate and then Aikido?
ESR: Yes, Karate first and then Aikido. I think that way works better
than the other way around, because, Karate is relatively simple, and
Aikido is more settling complete technique.
ChangeLog: Do you think learning Japanese culture and Aikido
influenced you especially as a hacker and as a representative of the
OSI?
ESR: I don't know how it has influenced me but I can tell you that the
interest in martial arts is very common among the American hackers.
I'm not exceptional on that respect.
It's no longer rare in the United States, but it's more common among
the hackers than elsewhere.
In fact, that was already clear back in 1991, when I did the New
Hacker's Dictionary, one of the things I described was it has been
typical of hackers back in 1991 that they are often interested in
martial arts, and I think that's become more true in 8 years since.
ChangeLog: Larry Wall, the creator of Perl, mentioned about "Aikido
for programmers" when he came to Japan last November. He said Aikido
has various "forms" and you fight against your enemies using the best
set of forms, and that has something in common with programming. What
do you think about this point?
ESR: Larry is a good friend of mine, by the way.
I think what's similar is that both, martial arts and programming,
require a certain kind of discipline of the mind that most other
skills do not require. So there's a similarity in which you have to do
up here (pointing to his head). I think that appeals to many
programmers.
ChangeLog: You have been doing Karate for 9 years, so you must be the
strongest in the hacker community?
ESR: I don't think so. Probably not. (laugh)
ChangeLog: Which is stronger, Tove or you?
ESR: (laughing, clapping his hands) Oh, probably she is. Probably she
is. I haven't been champion of my country six times as she has. So
she's probably much better than I am.
ChangeLog: We know your Karate and arms (guns) are perfect, but what
happens if you are hit by a bus?
ESR: Then I die. Karma. (laughs)
( haha~~~, 我也笑倒了的说....)
ChangeLog: I mean, it is one of Linus FAQ, which goes like "what
happens to Linux if you are hit by a bus"? What happens in your case?
ESR: Oh yes, there's another way to answer the question.
Part of the reasons that I founded the Open Source Initiative was to
try and take what I had learned and teach it to other people, so that
if I was got hit by a truck, the work could carried on by the
organization. The OSI exists, partly, so that I won't be
indispensable.
---------
ChangeLog: Do you share the idea with Richard Stallman that selling
binary software is a problem for the community?
ESR: No.
I think there are some circumstances under which it makes economic
sense for a software to be open, and there are some circumstances
under which it makes economic sense for a software to be closed. I
don't think those circumstances are very common, but sometimes it
makes sense to be closed.
I have no interest in forcing anybody to be open when they think it's
a good idea for them to be closed. If being open works better, then
people will learn that, and then they will do it. It's my job to
educate people but it's not my job to crusade.
ChangeLog: Do you think binary software vendors survive in the future?
ESR: Yes.
I think they will have a much smaller piece of industry than they do
now. In the future, my guess is that perhaps 5 to 15 percent of
software will be closed, and that all software of infrastructure
level, such as OS, network stacks, sure those kinds of software will
be open, but I think closed software still exist and that doesn't
bother me.
ChangeLog: How would you define a "good software"?
ESR: My definition of "good software" is, first of all, it doesn't
crash! (laugh) It has to not crash, it has to keep working, that's
pretty basic.
It has to do the jobs that it's designed to do in a way that human
beings can understand, because if it's not true that human beings can
use, it's pretty useless.
So it has to do the designed job well in the way that human beings can
understand, and beyond that to get specific, you have to ask me what
kind of software, because different kinds of software have different
kinds of desirable qualities.
In some software, speed is all that's important, and in some software,
user interface is the most important thing. In some software,
correctly executing the particular complex algorithms is the most
important thing. So it's very hard to be general about that.
But I think we can say that the very basic criterion is (knocking at
the desk) it has to not crash!! (laugh)
(rat: 这就是"好软件"的定义, 以后大家努力啊!!!!!)
ChangeLog: Would you give us an example of existing binary only good
software?
ESR: Wow. That's tough. humm (thinking...)
you know, I haven't used binary only software for so long. (laughs...
attendant: "what is that?"...)
I don't know, I guess some ... Netscape Navigator 4 isn't too bad, I
use that.
(One of the attendants said "It doesn't meet your first criterion very
well, it crashes all the time!")
It's interesting, it never crashes... well, in my experience it's not
too bad. That's the only piece of binary only software I use with
frequency......
(Netscape这不是纯粹欺负咱们么? 凭什么...不过ESR是牛人, 连二进制码都怕他..55~)
(suddenly one software seemed to flash through his mind) .....oh, OH!
This is even a windows software. Wow!
The only program that I spend any time running on windows machine, is
a game called "Civilization". That's a pretty good programs.
( 文明? 谁玩过? 看看是不是个"好程序". 看来ESR好象说谎哦. M$ Winbugs难道
不是另外的binary programme? //sigh )
Do you have it here in Japan? It's a strategy game.... (He gave an
almost complete description of "Civilization", and seemed to keep
talking about it on and on... )
---------
ChangeLog: ....may we go on to our next question? (We only had limited
time for this interview, so I had to say this.)
ESR: Yes, of course. (laugh)
ChangeLog: About Ken Thompson's comment on Linux on IEEE Computer
magazine. He mentioned that Linux was worse than NT, and moreover,
that was about reliability. You have clarified what he meant later,
but that part was not included. So would you clarify on this point,
too?
ESR: I think that the key thing that he said that should be understood
is that he specifically said that his experience was that Linux on
non-PC hardware was not reliable. If you go back to the original
interview, that's what he said, which makes me suspect that he was
using some flaky marginal port on an Alpha or PowerPC.
And it's true that those ports are not as reliable as the PC Linux,
because they haven't had much use. They have not as much time for bugs
to be shaken out of them. The interesting thing is that the fact that
he specified non-PC hardware suggests that he had seen Linux one on PC
so he had knew actually that was reliable.
But I wasn't able to get him to get me more details about them. I
asked him what machine he's seen and he failed on, and he didn't tell
me. So I couldn't wrote it in the press about that.
But that's the interesting point, I think he may have seen some non-PC
port of Linux that was pretty marginal. He did say that he thinks open
sources is a good idea so I was very relieved about that. (laughs)
Ken saying "Linux is no good" is like having Eisai come back and say
"Zen is no good, it's disturbing!"
---------
This was actually Eric's Zen joke, which I and other Japanese
attendants there didn't understand....
According to a Japanese dictionary :-), Eisai was an old Japanese
Buddhist monk who first brought Zen to Japan from China. Therefore
Eisai saying "(Japanese) Zen is no good" is ridiculous, because it was
actually derived from him. :-)
Eric said one of the things that surprised him in Japan was that he
found out nobody seemed to understand his Zen jokes in Japan... the
fact is, only few Japanese practice Zen now!
( Eisai这个日本老和尚说的什么呢? 什么是Zen? 筝? 功夫还是乐器还是其他?)
---------
Later I had chance to talk with him, after his talk at Kyoto Sangyo
University. He was very friendly.
I asked him a little trifling question that asked if he had any plan
to make grades of open source software, such as "Top 100 OSS". He said
"No, I don't. It would get me far too many political words if I tried!
(in high voice) 'Why didn't you list my PC software!?!?' 'My software
deserves to be on that list!!! ahhhhhh!!'... No I don't think I'd do.
I get enough troubles doing what I'm doing."
He was all around a very nice person. Actually, much nicer than my
expectation. I told him so, then he said "So you expected me to be
obnoxious? Is that it? WHAT DID I DO??? PLEASE!! (laugh)"
He also told me a little about flaming. "Once I meet face to face they
do not tend to flame at me. It's the ones I haven't met that sometimes
get obstreperous. ", "People tend to flame me in public then send me
nice letters in private. I kind of wish it was the other way around...
:-)"
Last (but not least!), he said LWN was doing a very good job, and he
likes "LWN daily", too!
Eklektix, Inc. Linux powered! Copyright 1998 Eklektix, Inc. all rights
reserved.
Linux R is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds
===================End of Interview===========================
--
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| 以无法为有法 ， | 拳本无法，有法也空； | 我爱GNU/Linux, |
| 以无限为有限 | 一法不立，无法不容。| 因为我爱自由！ |
| | | |
| 截拳道宗师-李小龙 | 意拳宗师-王芗斋 | 土人 Linuxrat |
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